When Scott Hebert looked for a podcast exclusively dedicated to Stoicism last year he couldn’t find one so he took matters into his own hands and started the “Stoic Mettle” podcast. He committed to doing a weekly show for a year at the end of November 2016 and he is still going strong. We wanted to take a peek behind the scenes of the creation process, and especially we were curious about the fact that it was produced on Scott’s farm, which is his full time occupation. We got to chat about how the podcast started, his favorite episodes so far, how he first discovered Stoicism, how being on a farm helps him connect with nature as a whole and experience what Stoic scholar Pierre Hadot described as the “oceanic feeling,” and much more. Enjoy this interview with Scott below.
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You started earlier this year the “Stoic Mettle” podcast. If we understand correctly, you started it because you couldn’t find any other podcasts around Stoicism. Can you tell us why you decided to start it, and what you want to accomplish with it?
I have time to listen to a lot of audio content while I’m working so podcasts are a way for me to learn. I searched for a podcast about Stoicism but there weren’t any shows that were still being produced. I had found so much value from the limited knowledge about Stoicism I did have that I was surprised there were no shows. I thought since I had the problem of wanting this podcast there would be other people who also wanted it.
I wanted a way to get out of the project in case I sucked at producing the show or it didn’t gain traction so I committed to doing a weekly show for one year at the end of November 2016.
I present my show as ‘Stoic training’ and I run each episode like I used to run a martial arts class: Present an idea, drill, then spar. Each week the audience shows up and I present a Stoic idea or quote, I use a story from my life to drill it into your head then send you on your way to apply it in your own life. I don’t feel that I am teacher but a fellow student, it is Stoic training as much for me as it is for my audience. My goal is as I learn more, we all learn together.
I want to create the best podcast about Stoicism, I want to show people how I am using Stoicism in my everyday life and let them be a part of my own journey trying to go full-time on my farm and running my podcast. My first episodes were rough but now I am finding my rhythm. The continual improvement of the show is a reflection of the progress I am making in my life.
I have an idea for something I’d like to create but I need to build a larger audience first. I’m on track to hit the numbers I wanted to have by the end of a year and have had positive feedback from listeners so I will commit to doing another year and reassess how it is going at the end of 2018. There is a real possibility that if growth doesn’t continue I will stop producing the show in the future. If that happens I will be happy knowing I tried my best, made an impact on some people’s lives and I will consider it a charitable project.
What has been your favorite episode so far? Why?
I’m proud of all my interview episodes, personally I’ve taken so much value from them it has already made the show worthwhile to do. My favourite solo episode has been #007: Clarity of Purpose. I used the quote from Seneca,
“If a man knows not to which port he sails, no wind is favourable.”
I told a story about how when I started my farm I needed $20,000 but I didn’t have it. I did have a $20,000 truck though and I explain my thought process for selling it and getting a cheap car. I also talked about deciding to leave a woodworking job that was already allowing me a day off to work on my farm and leave it for another job at a golf course that paid less but I had more freedom.
These seemingly big choices I was facing were non-decisions because I had a clear purpose. My choices made themselves because I knew where I wanted to go.
I think about this quote a lot, almost every decision in life becomes easier when you have a clear purpose. By knowing what you want it allows you to operate with speed and say yes to the things that matter and to ruthlessly reject distractions.
How did you first discover Stoicism? If we remember correctly from what you said on one of the episodes, you first read The Obstacle is The Way, and then you moved to Marcus and the other Stoics. Can you tell us about that journey?
My journey discovering Stoicism was a mess. I had briefly looked into Stoicism a couple times but my knowledge was limited to only knowing about the dichotomy of control. I had read some blog posts, articles and some free translations online from Marcus and Epictetus but they didn’t click. I was a person who was never going to read a book about philosophy, I found it off-putting. I wanted real answers about things that would provide value in my life, I didn’t want to get into esoteric academic debates.
I came across The Obstacle is The Way and I thought maybe there was more to this “Stoicism” thing than I had originally perceived. I bought better translations of all the ancient Stoics. When I got the books I almost couldn’t believe it, it was nothing like what I thought reading philosophy would be. They were easy to read and provided insights into problems I was facing in my life almost 2000 years after they were first written. It all seemed so familiar and some of the choices I was making were already in line with what I was reading. I found so much value and was seeing real results in a such short time that I decided to start the podcast. I started to consume books from contemporary authors who wrote about Stoicism and everything started to click. I still feel like I’m scratching the surface but I like what I’m finding as I dive deeper.
Let’s talk about farm life. For more than a year now, you’ve been working on a small scale vegetable farm. Can you tell us about that experience, perhaps how it has been helpful from a more philosophical perspective?
I was lost in life, I was in what author Robert Greene would call ‘dead time’. I would go to work, live for the weekends, and go on vacations to escape life. I had credit card debt but nothing to show for it. I didn’t like myself and it showed in how I acted and treated other people. I was wasting my life drinking and partying, I had friends but sometimes I would hang out with them and feel overwhelmingly alone.
Was this all life had to offer? It was a terrible feeling. I wanted to feel alive, I wanted to find some kind of meaning.
I heard the call to farm and I felt a pull to the land.
I had a couple of options for executing my dream: I could go get a well paying job and hobby farm/homestead on the side or I could try to make it into a full-time business. I chose to go with the latter.
I wanted to have a business that was good for the environment, was good for my community and good for my life. Since I am trying to be a career farmer I faced all the struggles of starting my first business plus I had to deal with whatever nature was going to bring. As added challenges I also had no experience farming and destructive habits.
Anything that pushes you to your limits will show you who you are and farming will take you to your breaking point. When you get to the edge you may not like what you see. All of those bad habits you fed grew larger. Your destructive habits merge with the other struggles you’re facing and you find yourself looking at a monster.
Surrounded by chaos you enter a battle with no end. It feels like fighting a hydra, you cut off one head only to have two more grow back. You will never win a battle of attrition if when you solve one problem you then have two more problems spring from the result. You need to find a way to cut off the heads and cauterize the wounds but where are you going to find the fire to do it? You don’t have time to look for a solution because you’re too busy slashing away at the problems in front of you. Your breathing is heavy and your arms burn from carrying the weight of your weapon but you keep swinging, you have no choice. Eventually you’re struck by the monster and while you’re lying there exhausted, coughing up your own blood, you reflect on the choices that brought you there.
You use the Stoic virtue of wisdom to navigate a complex situation in the best possible way. You look at how you got here without becoming overly emotional and try to find an answer.
You use the virtue of courage to see things as they are. You realize that you’re the one who created this beast.